"Short stories that have more than five characters should have their own categories." Hitler and Stalin bring it up to five.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 06:35, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
- Oh come on, they're hardly in it.
- I never liked their inclusion anyway. Seems to me that political oppression, however unjust, operates in a different sphere from metaphysical evil. But that's neither here nor there. Turtle Fan (talk) 07:39, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
- Hitler and Stalin are manifestations of evil and not characters. If we ever do get enough for a characters sub-cat I would argue against including them there. ML4E (talk) 17:51, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's what I was trying to say with "They're hardly in it." At nearly four in the morning, precision will suffer. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:46, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
- Hitler and Stalin aren't in the story directly, but they're contemporarily referenced by having Abbadon cavort around disguised as them (even though that part of the story was a little dumb), so they count as characters of the story.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 03:55, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Not contemporary references; they were shown as glimpses of the future. That such glimpses were completely wasted on the POV makes calling them "references" problematic, too (as well as highlighting the stupidity of their inclusion). Turtle Fan (talk) 16:18, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- As Hitler and Stalin were alive (but not prominent) in 1916, that makes them contemporary. It doesn't matter that the characters don't get the reference; we the readers recognize the images being portrayed.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 20:30, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Right, but as I said earlier, they are not appearing as characters but as manifestations of evil by a demon. ML4E (talk) 20:35, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- I really don't see how that's relevant. George Washington appears as a statue in Upsetting the Balance but is counted as a Worldwar character. Edward VII of the United Kingdom appears in some stories as a face on currency but is counted as a character in those. I really don't see how counting Hitler and Stalin as "Ils" characters would break precedent.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 20:47, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
- Those were representations of recognizable figures (though calling them "characters" is still a stretch). These are images of the future. Also, they're images divorced from the people they portray: Unless you want to suggest that the dictators were actual devils, then they're at most avatars for something else. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:09, June 27, 2016 (UTC)